WHEN DID JESUS COME INTO EXISTENCE?

The questions before us are: (1) were God and Jesus in existence at the same time during eternity past, or (2) was Jesus created at a later date, but before the creation of the world? I think the following scriptures clearly point to the fact that statement (2) is the right answer. I believe Psalms 2:7, Proverbs 8:22-23, Isaiah 45:11, Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14, in particular, teach that the latter (2) is true. See the following list of scriptures and comments further on in this chapter.

Is Jesus God? He most certainly is, but through God’s spirit. I think Revelation 1:8-9 says it quite well: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

All mankind has a spirit from God. The difference between Jesus (incarnate) and the rest of mankind, although made of the same dust, is that Jesus has God's Spirit within him. He was and is sinless. Only God could be sinless. We have a spirit and are sinful. The only way Jesus, who was made of dust, could be sinless is if He has God's actual Spirit within Him. Jesus received God's Spirit at the moment He was created, before the foundation of the earth (John 17:24). When Jesus said to Philip, "have I been so long time with you, and yet thou hast not known me?" He was showing him the Father. Is Jesus God? The answer is yes! To understand you have to have the faith of a child. It is both a miracle and a mystery. Through this miracle and mystery - is how Jesus can be: "The Christ" "The Messiah" "Saviour" "Redeemer" "Wonderful Councellor" "Faithful Witness" "The Word of God" "The Truth" "The Light of the World" "The Way" "The Good Sheppard" "Mediator" "Deliverer" "The Great High Priest" "The Author and Perfector of Our Faith" "The Captain, of our Salvation" "Our Advocate" "The Son of God" "The Son of Man" "God" "Everlasting Father" "The Holy One of God" "Only Begotten Son" "Mighty God" "The Image of God" "Everlasting Father" "Lord" "Lord of Glory" "Lord of Lords" "Blessed and Only Potentate" "King of Israel" "King of Kings" "Ruler of the Kings of the Earth" "Prince of Life" "Prince of Peace" "The Son of David" "The Branch" "David" "Root and Offspring of David" "The Bright and the Morning Star" "Immanuel" "The Second Adam" "The Lamb of God" "The Lion of the Tribe of Judah" "The Alpha and the Omega" "The First and the Last" "The Beginning and the End" "The Beginning of the Creation of God" "The First-Born of All Creation" "The Amen" and the "I Am." And in Jer. 23:6, “The Lord Is Our Righteousness.”

Were the angels created or were they just there? Was the pre-incarnate Jesus standing along side God in the forever past or was the supernatural body created for the Spirit of God to indwell? John 17:24 states that God was dealing with Jesus (pre-incarnate) before the foundation of the world. In point of fact, as you know, Jesus was given the task of creation. I am not taking Jesus off the throne in any degree. I am (spiritually) standing in front of them both, while Jesus is sitting on the right side of God. Jesus incarnate prayed to God as the Son. Jesus pre-incarnate was seen numerous times in the Old Testament and even described in some cases as the Angel of the Lord, carrying out the work of the Heavenly Father. The body that He was in during Genesis 18:1-33, sat down with Abraham and did eat meat and again in Luke 24:42-43, ate broiled fish and honeycomb in the presence of some of the disciples after His resurrection. Neither one of these bodies could have existed on its own; it had to be created at some point in time. Those bodies were used in an earthly function and could not have possibly co-existed with God before He would have created them for their earthly use. If they (the bodies), as the evolutionist puts it, just happened to be there, (they in bodily form while God was in spirit form) without being created, then the universe could have also just happened to be there and have "created" life in a spontaneous explosion which sent hot rocks deep into cold space, rapidly cooling and forming little pools of moving microscopic slime that turned out to be humanity. Come to think of it, when you see the way we act, that may be a good point. Gives a whole new meaning to the term, "we've been slimed."

The pre-incarnate and incarnate Christ are both subject unto God and the keyword is, image. Jesus is an image of the original. There can only be one original. It's like taking a picture. You snap a picture of the original subject and make an exact copy, yet they are not both the original. Since we know there is only one God and He is a Spirit (or should I say, God is Spirit) and is invisible we have to assume that He was alone from, who knows how long ago, up to the time that I say, the body of the pre-incarnate Jesus was created, wherein God "indwelled" His Spirit. I believe that God is a Spirit and there is a difference between Him and the Holy Spirit, which is an agent of God. His Spirit (His Being) and the Holy Spirit are not the same. When I say His Spirit, I really mean Him (since He is a Spirit). How is Jesus God by means of the Spirit? It has to be through the indwelling of "God" into a tangible body. God Himself cannot be touched. God, through Jesus, can be. A tangible Jesus without God in Him, could not have "done" creation. In short, the miracle or the mystery word has to be "Indwell."

Short of creation, short of reaching out to touch His creation, God has no need of a body. He got along just fine without one for only He knows how long. What good is it if God just sits there all alone? All that Power, all that Majesty, all that Glory, all that ability - just sitting there doing nothing, declaring nothing, testifying to nothing. Anybody so great needs to be glorified. There is no element of pride in that; it's just a FACT. Before that greatness could be glorified there had to be someone or something to glorify it. Even if (God aided) evolution were true, it too would have to declare the greatness of God. Therein, by the way, is the whole purpose of (total) evolution. It seeks equality with God. It is the miracle of miracles, everything being created from nothing all by itself. The beauty about that system is that there is no one to answer to but ourselves. We are all in all. Every man can and will do that which is right in his own heart. In other words, survival of the fittest with no moral obligation to those around you. I think that's what Psalms 19:1, Romans 1:20, 2 Peter 3:5 and others, condemns. Psa. 19:1, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth His handywork." Rom. 1:20 "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" And, 2 Pet. 3:5, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

Concerning Jesus incarnate and the mother of God: Since we know who Jesus really is, it may be a matter of terminology or name placement. Much like the scripture that says, (1 Thess. 1:9) (1) "and how ye turned to God from idols... Rather than, (2) and how ye turned from idols to God. There is a big difference. The first showing salvation, the second showing a never-ending search for truth, hopping from one religion to another.

First there was God, then the pre-incarnate Jesus, then the incarnate Jesus. If all three individuals; God being spirit and Jesus pre-incarnate and Jesus incarnate being in their respective bodies, were all there together from forever past, then Mary could be the mother of God. But because of their order this is impossible. Not intending to destroy evolution, (it does a good enough job on its own) the question, "which came first, the chicken or the egg" is most important. Believing that Mary was the mother of God, puts the egg first. Putting the chicken and egg on creation terms: There was God, then the chicken and then the egg. Everything has its own order. As the egg cannot precede the chicken, Jesus in any bodily form, cannot precede God. Therefore the pre-incarnate and incarnate Jesus, of Himself, cannot be the Self Existent One. Everything must be in its own order.

As I have said before, the only way the person of Jesus could be God, is by God's very own spirit being placed within Him. This brings us back to the "image" of God. If Jesus incarnate was the Self Existent One, then truly Mary was the mother of God. I don't believe that was true. Jesus was born of a woman just like you and me, yet He was without sin. Only God has not sinned. Only God could not sin. God is God and His image is His image, which is His Son. Colossians 1:15, says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. If God is invisible, and I believe that is true - He had to become visible to Moses (Exodus 33:23) and if that body was the preincarnate Jesus that was on the plains of Mamre with Abraham, it wouldn't make one ounce of sense that Moses could only see His back parts, when Abraham got to talk to Him face to face. Scofield seems to indicate that God was "veiled in an angelic form" in this instance. If that is true, where did this form come from? That form had hands, face and no doubt, all the rest of a visible body. At most, it had to be created and at least it had to be made visible. I believe the latter is true. At any rate there is a difference between the two persons that Abraham and Moses saw and talked to.

All power is given to the Son by the Father. I have never read anywhere that Jesus fills the heavens and earth but God the Father does.

It seems that the important reason for the Father/Son relationship between Jesus and God was fellowship and once Jesus was there, God sought to give Jesus glory because He loved Him, which just happened to be before the foundation of the world. What I'm trying to point out here is that there was a Father and Son relationship in existence long before there was a universe. The beginning of the universe and everything in it was not at its creation. The beginning was at Jesus, because before any of the rest could come, the preincarnate Jesus had to be there to create it.

Isaiah 45:11, (KJV) really speaks to me. When you have a verse such as this that is ignored by some very good commentators, I would tend to call that a cover up if not a heresy itself. If you want to correspond any further (which I invite) please do so on this verse. Maybe you have read something that explains it to a sufficient degree.

What we are dealing with is not only a miracle, it is a mystery. God has given me an ability to absorb lots of scripture, and that's the good news. The bad news is that I don't have total recall and the ability to access it at will. If I did, I could use a lot less words trying to explain this or that, so please bear with me.

I believe the Big Bang was nothing less than a shout of declaration of God’s greatness by the pre-incarnate Christ, and that FACT declaring itself is much like the story in Luke 19:40, when Jesus said, "I tell you that, if these (people) should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out." You could compare it to spontaneous combustion. Once Jesus was created, the heavens could only contain God's greatness, X-number of years before His greatness came into the physical realm. When there was only God, His greatness was known only to Him. Jesus, if you will, could not contain that great truth. Not in any form of weakness or materialistic pride, but in total and spontaneous exaltation. God’s greatness should not be kept a secret.

Getting back to the subject--His plan for the earthly creation had to have a first step. I say Jesus was that first step. God, having that Son, seeing He was perfect, set Him as that vessel to bring glory to Himself and all His creative abilities and divine attributes and in turn, Jesus was so honored. If you honor the king, it is a given, that you will honor the Son. The next step was the Holy Spirit. If God, who is invisible, has an image, then the Holy Spirit should have the same attribute. Now we can better understand Genesis 1:26. "Let us create man in our image." I believe they all three were there.

Concerning Rev. 1:8-9: God the Father had no beginning. When you have no beginning you can't be the first or the last of anything, unless it would be a plan or a job of some kind. It has been said (Unger's Bible Dictionary) that "the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, were used to express the eternity of God (Rev. 1:8,11; 21:6; 22:13; see also Isa. 44:6)..." I disagree with that. A circle or the letter "O" better represents God than the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. A circle has no beginning and no end. I think the heavens (round planets, etc.) even declare this truth. Please notice that Isa. 44:6, seems to be saying, thus saith Jesus, and agreed to by His Redeemer, "I am the first, and the last; and beside me (them) there is no God." The alphabet itself is a creation. It is not an end unto itself; it has a certain purpose on this earth. There was no need for an alphabet until communication by writing was needed. All the information in the world and the universe or will ever be, is inside God and has been there forever. It was not made manifest until He needed it. When He needed it He put it into a tangible form. The first and the last, as concerns Jesus has to do with the salvation of mankind. The period of time may be from the creation of the world or setting up of the kingdom (thousand year reign) to the end of the white throne judgment and/or the setting up of heaven (eternity). It may be from the fall of mankind to the restoration. It may be from the resurrection of Jesus to the restoration of mankind into eternal heaven. Whatever time frame it is, Jesus is the first and the last, the beginning and the ending of God's PLAN (of redemption) for all mankind. Jesus will go on, even though the plan is finished. Jesus had a job to do and He did it. That job had a first day and a last day. A time of beginning and a time of ending.

I was in the Air Force four years. I entered, and when that job was done I departed, yet I still go on even today with other works. My title has been changed from Airman to Patrolman to truck driver (not counting other jobs and titles in between).

Is Jesus God? Yes! There has to be a mechanics of explanation, which may not be so easy to explain. Like I said, it is both a miracle and a mystery. I hope the following scripture will help to explain the delivery or mechanics of how that (Jesus and God being one) was done.
Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day I have begotten thee. (See: Acts 13:33.)

Psalms 8:5-6

5. For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

I don’t know if this indicates that there were angels in existence before God created Jesus or not, but I suspect they were and that is one of the reasons why Lucifer rebelled against God. It is a similar thing to Ishmael and Isaac. Hebrews 1:5-6 seems to also indicate the same thing. The third heaven was God’s dwelling place and obviously was already in existence before the creation of the universe.

Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Psalms 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

This can be said of God and Jesus. Concerning the word, : “everlasting,” Strong’s - “5769 `owlam (o-lawm'); or `olam (o-lawm'); from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always: KJV-- alway (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+without end). Compare 5331, 5703.”

There is an important difference between these words as evidenced by Proverbs 8:23 (below). Remember, with God, there was no beginning, He always was.

Proverbs 8:22-31

22. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26. While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28. When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29. When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30. Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

"Possessed" Gr. erect ie. create. I think this looks beyond "wisdom" to His Son. All this (Creation) was given by God, for His Son to do.

Proverbs 30:3-4

3. I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy. 4. Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

To me, this speaks of more than latter day knowledge through the incarnation.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Please notice that this language seems to be before the incarnation. Also notice that, "Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker," seem to be completely ignored by various commentators. I find this very strange at least, and a cover up at most. At least they don't use Hebrew to try and cover up "Maker." "Before Abraham was, I AM," John 8:58. Tyndale's publication of the Living Bible-The Way, says, "Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, Israel's Creator..." And ABS's - The Good News Bible (Todays English Version) says, "The Lord, the holy God of Israel, the one who shapes the future..." Those are two very lame attempts to explain away what others have ignored, and what the Bible really says about Jesus.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Notice the word everlasting-Strong’s-[5769]. Compare with others: 5331, 5703. 5769 means a vanishing point. 5703 better fits the truly eternal. See: Proverbs 8:22-23.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This fact is even stated better in Mark 13:32. “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” These scriptures make it clear that there are some things that the Father knows that Jesus doesn’t. How could this be if they were one in the same flesh, if you will?

John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This has to refer to Jesus because God has no beginning. The “beginning” means to the things in the earthly plans of God, not the eternal past. Remember Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. A point of order: Other translations that I checked (RSV, NIV, NAS, AMP, and NKJV) say, “the heavens and the earth.” This is not accurate. The third heaven was already there. It was God’s dwelling place long before Jesus was created. The Good News Bible (Today’s English Version) says “the universe,” which is more accurate than the others.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory as of the only begotten of the father,) full of grace and truth.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

The Father that already had life in himself gave that same power to His son. Not to repeat, but who had it first? John 8:4 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Also see Exodus 3:14, and Isaiah 45:11.

John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second Psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

This ties to Psalms 2:7. When you see it in Psalms it seems to be pointing to the kingdom. When you read it here it seems to speaking of Jesus' resurrection as the begetting. This may not be a good scripture to use to try and prove my point but when you look at the Greek word for begotten (3205 in the Strong’s) it has to do with: to bear, to begat, as a midwife. It seems to better describe Jesus coming through Mary when He first came to earth.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature:

Image, 1504 in the Strong’s, a likeness, i.e. (lit.) Statue, profile, or (fig.) representation, resemblance:-image. Also see Hebrews 1:3, (express). It (5481) has to do with an exact copy. An exact copy of the original would mean that there had to be a primary person to make the copy of, that would then be represented by its copy.

I would further like to point out the scriptural difference between God and Jesus as it relates to Omniscience. Jesus Himself said in Mark 13:32 - "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." While He was clothed in His earthly body, there were things He didn’t know.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 5481 (Strongs) charakter (khar-ak-tare'); from the same as 5482; a graver (the tool or the person), i.e. (by implication) engraving (["character"], the figure stamped, i.e. an exact copy or [figuratively] representation): KJV-- express image.

Hebrews 1:5-6

5.  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6. And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The word: beginning - arche - is very self explanatory. Arche, in the Greek means "Commencement." Once again, John 17:24: Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

In conclusion: Is Jesus God? Yes! Is God Jesus? No! God’s Spirit is within Jesus. Jesus’ spirit is not within God. Before the beginning God was God and complete within Himself, long before Jesus was created.

A TV preacher was telling how his little grandson made a profound statement after hearing that Jesus is God. He reasoned in his mind that God is therefore Jesus! The preacher said he thought about it and said, “that’s right.” This is how we are coming into the theater of Roman Catholicism. They teach that Mary is the mother of God. If God is Jesus, then Mary is truly the mother of God. But because Jesus (pre-incarnate) was the first of God’s creation, we know that this is not to be true.

The first tangible worship of God was the instant creation of the universe by Jesus in declaration of the very greatness of God. Jesus could not keep silence. The big bang was that declaration.

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